Wind powered ekranoplan – we can do it.

"therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary" (therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary) 09/26/2013 at 16:56 • Filed to: None

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So yesterday we learned more about the America's Cup, and their awesome ship, and that Torchinsky thinks we should turn Messerschmitt KR200 looking cars into hot air balloon cars. In this vein, I would like to bring to you an idea that has been floating around in my head – the wind powered ekranoplan.

Stop. Think about it for a second. Think about flying without an engine. No, don't just keep reading, google all this shit. Put it together in your head and let it steep. Feel the excitement coming over you. Picture yourself flying over the ocean blue with the only sound being the wind and nature.

In my mind 50 mph is fast enough to get an ekranoplan off the water and flying.

This is possible, right?

I mean, the things nearly fly already, running on those hydrofoils. Surely this is just one step more. And, if the proof of concept works – get this – wind powered planes, man. Imagine two sails, one sticking up and the other sticking down, with wings at each side. It would almost, kinda, look like an X wing (ok, not really, but it would have an X-ish win/sail set up).

Now think about being the first person who flies around the world on a plane without an engine. Think about Amelia Earhart. Think about the prestige. Think about the beautiful machine. Don't think about how this idea relies almost entirely on imaginings and pictures of glory and not on real science. Don't think about the almost guaranteed failure and watery death.

Amelia Earhart, man.

Now I can't draw, and my ability to manipulate images with photoshop is limited but just imagine an ekranoplan with a sail on it – make the whole thing of crazy carbon fibre and composites and you'd be flying without an engine. And remember, this would be flying, not gliding (or at least in my head it flies).

Can somebody get behind me on this?

There has to be some record or something in it.

HammerheadFistpunch > therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary 09/26/2013 at 16:58

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cazzyodo > therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary 09/26/2013 at 17:02

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Now, I'm no physicist (changed majors when I didn't know what I would do with the degree) nor do I pretend to be one (not even on tv)...but I can't imagine the force diagram for this contraption. My head hurts (other reason I changed majors).

HammerheadFistpunch > therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary 09/26/2013 at 17:02

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Sorry for double post, but...

"Imagine two sails, one sticking up and the other sticking down, with wings at each side. It would almost, kinda, look like an X wing (ok, not really, but it would have an X-ish win/sail set up)."

I think you mean B-wing.

davedave1111 > therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary 09/26/2013 at 17:08

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What part of an ekranoplan will replace the keel of a boat? They still have to have enough in the water to keep them from crabbing sideways.

KillerRaccoon - Group J's Sébastien Loeb > therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary 09/26/2013 at 17:17

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Sorry, no it wouldn't work.

Lift comes from a relative speed between a fluid and a foil. In that boat, the sail gets it up to speed and the difference in speeds between the foil and the water is what lifts the boat.

If the foil was in the air, the sail would get it up to speed and then there would be no relative speed difference between the air and the foil, and thus no lift.

Sorry to be a Debbie Downer, I got really excited, too, until I thought about it.

#seniorphysicsmajor

Cixelsyd > therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary 09/26/2013 at 17:17

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I doubt the lift generated by the wings would ever be enough force to counteract the immense forces on the sail. Without the far denser water to push against, I would imagine a sail powered ekranoplan would simply capsize if you ever got it airborne.

therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary > davedave1111 09/26/2013 at 17:17

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I don't know, like some kind of air keel? That's a thing, right?

therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary > HammerheadFistpunch 09/26/2013 at 17:19

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Yes, one million times. Think if we had these silently swooping through our skies powered by wind and prevented by crabbing via air keels (it's a thing).

therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary > cazzyodo 09/26/2013 at 17:20

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I'm not a physicist either, so we've got something in common. And let me tell you, brother in (for you partial for me more than partial) ignorance of physical laws, ignorance is bliss and leads to awesome.

Bandit > therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary 09/26/2013 at 17:26

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Running off of my physics knowledge I obtained in physics class last year: It can't work. The forces would be all messed up. The closest we have is a glider.

therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary > KillerRaccoon - Group J's Sébastien Loeb 09/26/2013 at 17:26

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But what about ground effect and what not? Like the nubbly wings on ekranoplans*

*I have no idea what I'm talking about and your post was informative. Thanks for the input.

P.S. Just say you believe, otherwise the reindeer can't fly Santa around and you won't get presents this Christmas.

therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary > Cixelsyd 09/26/2013 at 17:27

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Air keel! (it's a thing ^)

apr10427 - Greedo never fired > therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary 09/26/2013 at 17:31

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Ground effect is irrelevant in this case. Using wind power you would always be heading downwind. In a best case scenario, you would travel the same speed as the wind and generate no lift. A vertically mounted foil, like a cup boat, also wouldn't work due to the lateral force exerted by the wind.

therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary > Bandit 09/26/2013 at 17:32

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therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary > apr10427 - Greedo never fired 09/26/2013 at 17:35

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But this:

Entirely sail-powered, these boats are capable of traveling more than twice the speed of the wind itself.

apr10427 - Greedo never fired > therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary 09/26/2013 at 17:39

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Yes they can, but they aren't traveling downwind when they do. They are tacking, traveling perpendicular to the wind. The physics of what you're suggesting just don't work.

Redd, the RX-7 that could > apr10427 - Greedo never fired 09/26/2013 at 18:38

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With a tail wind, airspeed would be at best, 0 mph, you know this of course, but if the craft operated like a sailboat using cross winds, this design has a bit more feasibility since the air speed around the wings would actually exist, however without a daggerboard or keel to keep the craft on course, the wind would simply blow it over, so it might be possible without hydrofoils, but there would definitely have to be some form of stabilization in the water.

Jayhawk Jake > therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary 09/26/2013 at 19:58

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I font think it would be possible. You either need a really big wing, which would be too heavy and draggy to work, or you would need to be really small and fairly fast.

I'm not a WIG expert though, so I could be wrong

Jayhawk Jake > therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary 09/26/2013 at 20:01

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It's called a vertical stabilizer. For control, a rudder.
I I'm saving air keel though. It's relevant to my work

therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary > Redd, the RX-7 that could 09/26/2013 at 23:26

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I like your can do attitude and the fact that you have RX-7 in your name. That means all I need to do is invent an air keel, and I've already started the project by dubbing it the air keel. Yeah.

therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary > Jayhawk Jake 09/26/2013 at 23:30

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Yeah, it's a thing. It should probably look something like this when we're done.

Except more wind powered-y and less gunn-y.

Jayhawk Jake > therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary 09/27/2013 at 08:45

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Considering that's a spacecraft, I wouldn't use it as an example for something meant to fly through the air and/or water.